Transforming Pet Health with Integrative Veterinary Medicine and Medicinal Mushrooms

What if you could revolutionize your pet's health with simple, natural remedies? Join us on the Mindfully Integrative Show for an eye-opening discussion with Dr. Robert Silver, a pioneer in integrative veterinary medicine. Dr. Silver shares his compelling journey from conventional veterinary practices to embracing a holistic approach that includes diet, herbal medicine, acupuncture, and nutraceuticals. Listen as he recounts his experiences and insights, emphasizing the foundational role of diet and nutrition in pet health. Learn how he took his frustration with traditional treatments and turned it into a mission to offer more effective, natural solutions for pets.

Mushroom enthusiasts, this one's for you! In a fascinating segment with Joni, we explore the incredible benefits of medicinal mushrooms like lion's mane and cordyceps. Discover how these natural wonders can boost cognition, energy, and lung health for both humans and pets. Dr. Silver dives deep into the biological connection between humans and fungi, explaining the science behind why mushrooms are so effective in enhancing our immune systems. Gain a new appreciation for the evolutionary relationship we share with these powerful organisms and the significant health benefits they bring.

Finally, we touch on the unique virtues of Reishi mushrooms, known for their mood-enhancing and sleep-improving properties. Through personal stories and expert recommendations, you'll learn how incorporating Reishi into your daily routine can lead to better sleep and overall well-being. We conclude with a heartfelt discussion on the importance of educating veterinarians through online communities, aiming to create a ripple effect that benefits countless animals and their owners. This episode is packed with valuable insights and practical tips, ensuring you walk away with actionable knowledge to improve the health of your pets—and maybe even yourself.

Chapters

• 0:24 Integrative Veterinary Medicine and Pet Nutrition
• 14:18 The Power of Medicinal Mushrooms
• 24:05 The Benefits of Reishi Mushrooms
• 29:49 Educating Veterinarians Through Online Community

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:25

Hi, how are you? This is Damaris Maria Grossman, and this is the Mindfully Integrative Show, and today we have an amazing mindful chat with Dr Robert Silver. He is a veterinarian integrative veterinarian and I am so excited for him to be on the show because I think it's a perspective that people don't even realize. What you do for your animals is also a reflection in your health and in your therapy for yourself. So I think it's so cool to know that you can help them too, and I can't wait for his insight for you guys to understand that there is another way than just the typical. So thanks so much, dr Robert Silver, for being on, and and Joni also, thanks again.

Speaker 2: 1:04

Thank you for having us.

Speaker 1: 1:05

Yeah, so chat with me, tell me what I say is a little fun fact that people may not know about you um.

Speaker 2: 1:14

I'm a lover of bluegrass music oh nice, oh cool.

Speaker 1: 1:19

So where are you? Um? Do you play? Do you like the banjo? Do you have a certain like?

Speaker 2: 1:24

I do, I do play guitar, although not so good anymore, but um, that's pretty good on it, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:31

And then do you go to like events and festivals.

Speaker 2: 1:34

I do such as I'm. I have the time to do it, but yeah, there's a. There's one bluegrass festival close to me that I try to go to every year.

Speaker 1: 1:43

Oh, nice, nice, All right, I know, are you done? Are you kind of more in your time of, more relaxed, or are you always still pretty, pretty busy?

Speaker 2: 1:54

Yeah, I'm pretty busy. I guess you would say there's a lot of things I have to do before I pass from this world.

Speaker 1: 2:00

Oh no, I think we should always be steady, right, at least Okay.

Speaker 2: 2:06

Sure.

Speaker 1: 2:07

So talk to me about you know you have such an amazing career in the integrative health space and as a veterinarian, and what made you kind of change from the conventional way, as I say it, in your world of medicine and then you know to help animals and creatures in a different way.

Speaker 2: 2:26

I could probably sum that up in one word why I made the switch, or what got me interested in finding something different Frustration. Frustration, with patients not responding to the treatments that I had been taught for conditions that they have which are quite a bit more complicated than most protocols allow, for it's these chronic disease patients, these patients with diabetes, these patients with multiple chronic problems all at the same time, all in the same animal. And you know, I think conventional medicine has an awful lot to offer and I think it's got a lot of value. But I think conventional medicine has an awful lot to offer and I think it's got a lot of value, but I think it needs to be used in the right time, in the right place, in the right way, and I think that there are some types of diseases and conditions that are more complex than really what conventional medicine, at this point in time, is able to manage in an effective, long-term, adverse, event-free fashion. So that's what set me looking, and the first place I looked at was diet and nutrition, which, as we all know, is really the foundation of all life. You don't eat, you don't live. You don't eat well, you don't live well. So I started looking at. You know how we can better feed our pets and you know when you look at what the business model is for feeding pets, which is this highly processed and very nutrient restricted types of foods that are, admittedly, feeding millions more dogs than are when we probably would be able to with just table scraps alone. But there are some failings in this diet which can also create some of these chronic problems that we see. So I started with diet and I started teaching home prepared meals to my clients and and all I did was change from a commercial food to a home prepared meal and we started seeing some improvements when they were not improving prior to that.

Speaker 2: 4:36

I have an interest in backpacking and survivalism, so I started learning about edible, wild and edible plants and wild and edible mushrooms and things like that, and so I could feed myself when I'm backpacking. And then when I was in vet school, we had a class on poisonous plants, you know, pretty much for cattle and horses and stuff, but animals are out foraging and it kind of all put together plants could be poisonous, plants can be edible, you know. And then the next logical location is oh, plants can also have some healing properties too. So I started studying herbal medicine, I learned how to identify plants and learned how to make medicines and I learned how to start using them and I started seeing successes there. So you know, just kind of built on each other. Finally, I was able to afford the cost of the acupuncture training, the veterinary acupuncture training, and I took that and you know, I just kept adding on the trainings and the experiences and built me to the place in my career where I am now, which is relatively experienced, although still certainly not able to solve all the problems that are out there, because there's some complicated medical problems, and so that's kind of what brought me my love of herbs and living things as natural remedies. That was kind of a natural evolution to go to becoming a veterinary herbalist.

Speaker 2: 6:06

I'm currently president of the American College of Veterinary Botanical Medicine. We are trying to create a training, an advanced training program for veterinarians there. And it also got my interest in nutraceuticals, which are basically supplements and extracts, and my interest in mushrooms, you know, which is a logical outcropping of food and medicines and everything else. And so that's how Joni and I come to visit with you is Joni and I are the pet side of Real Mushrooms, which is a Canadian company that both cultivates the medicinal mushrooms under USDA organic standards and extracts them according to scientific principles to make the active ingredients more bioavailable. But we also make the products, and so I'm currently working on I'm only getting started with a line of products specifically for pets. Real Mushrooms has been making mushrooms for human use for eight years now, and their parent company has been cultivating the mushrooms for 40 years, so-.

Speaker 1: 7:18

Oh, that's interesting, and I knew that was part of your because I didn't realize how involved you were on it. And I think that the part I was telling someone is that I started actually using like a wild mushroom blend and organic lion's mane. In addition and I'm not a mushroom fan, right, but I realized so as an integrated provider, I understood, as I was learning from your knowledge of herbs, and I said I have to have mushrooms in my diet. I got to do it, even if I don't like it, right, and I said this is something I needed. So I had to find a blend Um, I don't know if my blends personally that great, but I know that I've seen effects of just in my, my immunity alone, and and I bet you can give me even more insight on that because, um, and then to bring it to the animals, that's, that's, it's pretty awesome, cause it just says what I'm doing for myself, then can then relate it to these animals. So I think it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2: 8:14

Well, it does. Really. It's common sense, but not common. I'm not really in with eating mushrooms. There's no reason why you can't still avail yourself of the values of mushrooms through mushrooms as supplements. You know, because they've really extracted all the good stuff from the mushrooms. They put them in a little capsule so you don't even have to taste the crap. Have to taste the crap, you know, and you can get exactly what you want. What you need for your immune system, for your nervous system, for your digestive system, whatever and that's clearly what Joni and I are working on is developing uses of the mushrooms for pets, for a variety of things, and trying to do it in a way that we educate the practitioners about it and we give help to the pet parents as well, without making too many blatant medical claims. We have to be careful about that. Although they do have very good medicinal properties, we can't really say that based on regulatory issues.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Of course, of course, but I'm saying as a provider, as a person that was not into the mushroom thing. I'm a believer and I just it's just the research and when you identify the important, like the benefits of it versus these other things that are out there being offered, you're just like the world needs to understand. So how, exactly, with animals Now, do you have them put it in their food? Is it a tincture or is it a variety of different?

Speaker 2: 9:57

Well, it's dependent on the animal, you know, and there's different levels of palatability and preference for taste within dogs and especially within cats, on horses, you know, and probably pocket pets, and birds too, if you have those varieties in your household. So, um, we so that. So the first thing that I did was I took the, the human mushroom um formulations and I put them in smaller capsules. You, that makes it easy for pets that aren't very fond of a mushroom taste, and a couple of mushrooms are pretty bitter, you know, and some people like bitterness, some people don't, most pets don't, but some do, you know. So we put them in capsules. We give people choices, so we have capsules, we also have, and the capsules are all labeled. The human products are also in pouches, so they're bulk and those can also be given to the animals. They're not labeled for the animals but they can be given to the animals and we're giving instructions as far as how much to give for certain kinds of outcomes.

Speaker 2: 11:04

I've just I formulated two soft chews. Are you familiar with the soft chew model of pet supplement or pet treat?

Speaker 1: 11:13

I have seen them. I just haven't used them enough Like I've seen them available.

Speaker 2: 11:16

They're very popular. The dogs certainly like them. Some cats will actually eat them as well, and it kind of gives you an opportunity to mix some things together, more than just mushrooms that would all have one purpose, and maybe use some, some palatants, some flavorants to make it something that a, an animal would, would take as a treat, makes the whole medicine giving process so much easier. Because that's because we know in veterinary medicine that the big that you know, when you send them home with that bottle of capsules, they may not be actually getting it, because it's such a hassle to chase down the animal so and get them to take the capsule, or hide it in some food they might be clever, you know or you open it up and put in the food. That might be too bitter. So we have, we have been working with all the different ways that we can create these medicine, these, these products to be acceptable to this animal or that animal. One way or one way or the other, we'll get it in them, you know, and mushrooms are very similar to each other in that they contain the similar active ingredients. You know like there's something called beta glucans. Betaucans are these structural components and the mushroom cell wall gives it strength. But it turns out that the beta-glucans will signal human and animal immune systems to wake up and be more vigilant, will help to train the immune system to be better at what it does. So you know they all have that same immune modulating properties but they also have differences in their beta-glucans, which gives some of them more potency for some conditions, like turkey tail mushroom Maybe you've heard of that mushroom.

Speaker 2: 12:58

It has the highest percentage of beta-glucans in it which historically and traditionally it has been used for cancer because it's got more beta-glucans to do more better for the immune system to battle the cancer. Because that's really what the beta-glucans do is they build up the immune system, let the body deal with that problem itself. On the other hand, you might have a mushroom like, let's say, lion's mane, which also has the beta-glucans in it, but it has other molecules in it, as all other mushrooms do, other than the beta glucans, called triterpenes. These are terpenes. Like you squeeze a lemon, you smell that lemon. That's a monoterpene. So terpenes and mushrooms are larger, more complex, not as volatile, and they can interface with our nervous system to create the calmness that maybe you're feeling with the lion's mane. We also know that lion's mane can be very helpful for memory. That's one reason it's the most popular mushroom in America today.

Speaker 1: 13:59

Oh, yeah, that one, and I think I have some multi one, but you would probably know the best, I think. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:04

Yeah, a lot of choices out there, you know, and many of them are really good choices. You know, so, you know. So we have the terpenes in the mushrooms. So what I'm saying is mushrooms are very similar, but they also have individual differences. So Joni and I are really getting obsessed over this whole thing. We really love mushrooms. Joni's been quiet. We should let her talk, because she has so much to contribute. I know, I know, I know She'd rather have me talk.

Speaker 3: 14:30

Well, I'm fascinated listening to you, Dr Silver, so yeah, I am equally fascinated.

Speaker 1: 14:38

I would love for you to talk, Joni, and I apologize I didn't give you a good full introduction, but I want to make sure you guys are both. Joni is one of the most passionate people I know, about mushrooms.

Speaker 2: 14:49

I get this contact high from her excitement about mushrooms so we do need to see get her to talk a little bit about them. But so I was just saying so we're really what we're getting into is filtering out each mushroom individually and helping pet parents understand how it might help or might not help their pet's condition. And that's really because, you know, the most common question we get like when we go to shows and things and have our little booth stuff is what's it for?

Speaker 1: 15:19

You know, and it's obvious, that's what we need to detail people on People need to know, because I tell you, I had no clue and I only knew, knew, like you said, the lion's mane for focus. And then I'm taking this multi other one, the other than I know it's immune modulation kind of thing and, like you could ask me, I have no idea which. I know some coricep and reishi's in there and I'm like you would I need to, I need definitely a recap and understand and I will pop in here now.

Speaker 3: 15:48

Then I.

Speaker 2: 15:49

I was hoping you'd talk about synergy with the plans of mushrooms.

Speaker 3: 15:52

Yeah, well, there's definitely a synergy, but what I was going to say is one of the most challenging aspects of mushrooms is picking out which one to use and, like Dr Silver said, you know Rob often says there's a mushroom for that and there is, but there's also. Mushrooms do very similar things. Like all mushrooms are anti-inflammatory. You know all the medicinal mushrooms are also anti-neoplastic. You know they're immune modulating, so you know when you're looking at which one to use for a case, that's where things get really, really complicated.

Speaker 3: 16:30

But the fact of the matter is, no matter which mushroom you use, you're going to hit the target. You know you might want to go for more of a bullseye, and that's where you know certain mushrooms, like lion's mane, like y'all were already talking about, or cordyceps, which is the zombie mushroom that is very popular right now because the show the Last of Us came out. But cordyceps is an adaptogen. It's excellent for energy. It also has an affinity for the lungs and for the kidneys. The lion's mane, like you and Rob were saying, excellent for cognition, for any kind of memory issues, very calming. Reishi is also an excellent mushroom for sleep. It's also got incredible anti-cancer properties and there are many veterinarians that believe that mushrooms work best in synergy. Where combining the mushrooms together enhances, is almost. Would you describe that like an entourage effect.

Speaker 2: 17:34

I think the use of the word entourage effect is not limited to cannabis at all. I use it as a concept of herbal or natural medicine. Really yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:44

Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 17:45

Yeah, and a cool little fact I wanted to share is that you know we're we share DNA with mushrooms like kingdom fungi and and the. You know, the animal kingdom actually share about 30% of our DNA. So how cool is that?

Speaker 1: 18:03

I mean you know when I learned that my head exploded. It makes sense, like when you think about the fact you know why we're getting so much benefit from it.

Speaker 2: 18:16

Well, and also why. And let's face it, you know, some of the worst pathogens on this planet are fungal. So not only you know can we work with them, but they can work against us, because they have the key to get in there. You know. That's why because fungal pathogens are so toxic. That's why animals developed this recognition of beta-glucans, because beta-glucans are on the outside of a fungal cell, that's the cell wall. So when you recognize the outside of the cell wall, that turns the immune system on, which then can fight that fungal infection. That's like fire fighting fire, you know.

Speaker 3: 18:54

Yeah, it's like our DNA remembers. It's those organisms that survived fungi and different kinds of molds, et cetera that we were able to evolve. And there's that memory in our DNA that when we consume mushrooms, our immune system goes on alert. It says, okay, this, you know this could be a threat. Even though it's not a threat, it could be, and so the immune system becomes activated should there be a problem. And that's really where the benefit of mushrooms comes in. It's that as a pattern recognition. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:34

Four different receptors for beta-glucans on immunocytes. It's that important and some of the receptors will take in. When the molecule binds to the cell, it actually engulfs it and takes it into its cytoplasm where it metabolizes and breaks it up into more active pieces, and then that immunocyte or dendritic cell will travel to whatever the remote location is where the immune system needs to do something. Maybe you stubbed your toe, you know, or you got bitten by a bug or something and your immune system has to do something. So that immunocyte goes there with this activated beta-glucans on the inside and then releases them, which stimulates all the other immune cells in that area. It's really very, very elaborate, you know, very elegant, fascinating.

Speaker 1: 20:24

Other receptors? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I didn't even know the cusp of that and I knew that it was helpful. I couldn't even imagine the benefit. On that end, I think, when I think about it now, how many ailments it could help with. It could. It must be.

Speaker 3: 20:39

and the immune system can help with it, can, it can work there yeah, and I can say just from taking mushrooms personally for I only got interested in mushrooms back in 2020 it was like I had an experience with mushrooms that was so mind-blowing that I kind of changed my whole career path to work with them, and since taking mushrooms daily for now, going on three years there's a vigilance to my immune system. I feel like a vitality that I have never felt before, and I've been in the health and supplement industry for 20 some odd years. I've never felt like I feel when I take mushrooms on a daily basis and I put mushrooms in my coffee in the morning, you know, but I got to get your mushrooms.

Speaker 1: 21:27

But I'm not agree with you more. I've only been doing so. My husband and I, we actually had an expert. We were doing about three months and we probably could be benefit from more quality mushroom blends that of yours, we can talk after I'm around toddlers and I'm around also in a conventional urgent ER areas.

Speaker 1: 21:46

I used to get sick all the time and we're noticing the the both of us. Our immune systems are a lot more resilient than they used to be three to four months. Granted, I'm not on the blends that you guys are on, so I can imagine how that.

Speaker 2: 22:01

Well, we, we're, we're going to send you something anyway. We do that with our podcast. We want you to have the experience of what we think is probably the best mushroom extract in the world.

Speaker 1: 22:12

I would love it and I'd love it to send a code to people to reach you.

Speaker 2: 22:17

for those listening at some point, absolutely yeah, we can work that out, for you, we can set that up, sure, sure.

Speaker 1: 22:23

No problem so how can those reach you? First off, what's your favorite blend for dog, if they're like anti-inflammatory, and then how can those reach you?

Speaker 2: 22:36

Well, as Joni had mentioned, we find that although mushrooms all have very similar properties, they also have very slightly different properties and so when you use them in combination you tend to get a synergy. So, real Mushrooms our company has developed a multi-mushroom blend that has five mushrooms in it and there are five of the most potent immune-modulating mushrooms around Reishi you mentioned one, turkey tail the other, chaga a third, maitake the fourth and shiitake the fifth Five of the most studied and potent immune-modulating mushrooms there are Comes in powder, comes in capsule. We've put it into a soft chew for the dogs, calling it mushroom immune chews. That, if you're looking at one single thing, that would probably be the best place to begin. Now, if there's specific things you want to do you got a dog that maybe can't find the dog door, can't remember where its food bowl is, maybe we'd add some lion's mane in there.

Speaker 2: 23:41

If know, if you've got a kitty cat who might have some incipient kidney disease, maybe we'd want to add some cordyceps in there, because cordyceps is very supportive of the kidneys and so on and so forth. You know, that's kind of how we do it, but starting with one blend like that is really a safe, easy and simple way to get started, and then we can get more granular and detailed as time goes on. There's an interesting effect that mushrooms have that no one has really quantified. It's this they make you feel good. They just make you feel good. There's something about this, enhancing your sense of being alive, this quality of life sense that I don't think can really be measured or enumerated, but you hear so many people talking about that I do agree with you on this.

Speaker 1: 24:30

I am talking about from where we're recording this podcast, as a mom that hasn't been sleeping a couple of days in a row, right, and has been slowly been working in this mushroom realm.

Speaker 3: 24:41

And.

Speaker 1: 24:41

I'm not here to like just sell your stuff. I'm talking about I'm using someone else's. I have noticed my alertness and my tiredness, availability has been better and moods and such Granted. Of course I work in integrative space, but I noticed adding that to whatever I had been doing previous has made a difference.

Speaker 3: 25:01

Yeah, we've got to send you some reishi.

Speaker 2: 25:03

Yeah, reishi to reishi at bedtime, really nice yeah yeah, it was uh used by zen masters as a meditation aid. So it's it, doesn't? These aren't sedative settle, I like. I like the word settle, just I agree.

Speaker 3: 25:18

I agree, maybe grounding settling, that kind of settle. I agree.

Speaker 2: 25:21

I agree, maybe grounding settling that kind of thing yeah. Very nice.

Speaker 3: 25:25

I've been doing Reishi for a couple months now, and I find that I fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer. I'm dreaming where I wasn't and remembering my dreams. I'm sure I was dreaming before, but now I have more vivid dreams and I wake up feeling more rested, and I've had lifelong problems with sleep, and so this has been a real gift to discover Reishi.

Speaker 1: 25:58

I can't wait to prescribe it to my patients. You know, prescribe it, really discuss it really you know and get people to understand, because insomnia is like a biggest conversation. Sleep problems are huge, One of the big ones for me.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Yeah, and I come in conversations with health. I ran out of Reishi and I didn't realize you know how much it had benefited me till I finally I was off it for a couple of weeks and then I finally replenished my supply and back on it again and I can again. It's subtle. I can't really tell you how I'm feeling better, but I am, and I have to attribute it to the reishi.

Speaker 1: 26:31

Yeah, I believe you. I really, I truly believe you and I'm, like I said, as a mom of a toddler with intermittent sleeping patterns. My husband and I had conversated about this and we're just like. I think it's the mushroom he goes, is it the mushrooms? And here I have you on and the irony of it all. But that's great, it's wonderful, it's not irony, it's perfect.

Speaker 1: 26:51

It's a great conversation, cause I love that we're discussing herbs, we're discussing a natural way of like healing, and then also for animals, cause, like I said to you before, I have my own and meal and I think the simpler things that we can do and bring it more to like the basic national world, it's like oh, these herbs, so how can we reach you? How can those listening get ahold of you, both you and Joni Dr Soto, joni, Well, if you're interested in our mushroom products, you would go to realmushroomscom.

Speaker 3: 27:24

We do sell online. We're also available on Amazon, and one of the things I love the most about Real Mushrooms is we're really committed to education. So if you're a retail customer, you can go on, and there's a number of different blogs, many of them written by Dr Silver, on there, and we have a naturopathic doctor, dr Mason Bresset, who does a lot of writing on there. If you're a health care practitioner, you can open a wholesale practitioner account with us as well, and there's a down in the bottom right hand side of the Web page. There's a practitioner account. Sign up there and, yeah, so we're available. You can email us through. You know support at real mushroomscom, dr Silver and I just we also do a monthly Facebook live Q and A, so that's usually the last Thursday of the month. Yes, a Facebook live pet Q&A? Yeah, we mainly cover pet questions. We get a human question thrown in every now and again and, dr Silver, I didn't know if you wanted to add your personal website as well.

Speaker 2: 28:37

I'm sure. Thank you, yeah, I have, and I'm still the websites's a work in process. At the moment I'm starting to add some educational programs to my office, but the website I sell real mushrooms there. Plus I sell my own branded CBD and CBG, plus a number of other nutraceuticals and supplements that I've used clinically for pets, and it's wellpetdispensarycom. That is the the website address.

Speaker 1: 29:07

Wellpetdispensarycom. Awesome, yeah, I'd love for people to reach out to you or just to you know, just have more insight on what they can do differently, because I think, just like I get questions in the health field of, well, what else can I do? And you know, and you're like, no, it's not an approach. You know, you're not going to take the ibuprofen every day, like sorry, we, we've got to have another conversation. So, yeah, just like you have these conversations with, with pet owners that want their, their little babies to be better, you know people are wanting the answers, people are looking for it, people want as you know in your career, you spent your life with it.

Speaker 1: 29:43

People are frustrated.

Speaker 2: 29:45

They are, and I've retired from practice. That's okay. I feel that I have the ability to touch more lives by teaching veterinarians and by providing educational programs it's true programs and, uh, it's true general.

Speaker 1: 30:04

I think what we have now with this online community is a great opportunity really to share knowledge and share and share information, and so they're gonna you're gonna be the ripple effect you're educating them what to do and now then they're gonna bring that to their practice. So you're still helping in in a different way yeah absolutely. Um, I mean, I started this podcast out of just a passion project, so it's just cool Just putting a different perspective for individuals.

Speaker 3: 30:26

That's nice, it's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 30:28

Yeah, I'm so glad you guys came on and took your time on your busy schedule, so I appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 30:34

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 30:34

Pleasure and thank you guys from joining in on the Mindfully Integrative show and make sure each and every day you find a mindful way and we'll talk with you soon. Thanks again.